Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE)

MR. LENNMARKER: Thank you. Yes. My name is Göran Lennmarker. I am a member of parliament of Sweden, chair of the Foreign Affairs Commission, by the way, in our Swedish Parliament. I'm in the press center there with the Parliamentary Assembly, which is an assembly with 320 members.

MR. HASTINGS: Three-twenty, 56 countries.

MR. LENNMARKER: Fifty-six countries, 55 parliaments. The Vatican has no parliament. That is member of the OSCE. And I'm here to testify at the hearing before the Helsinki Commission of the U.S. Congress under leadership of Alcee Hastings. That is, of course, for me very important because that makes it possible for me to meet with the members of the Helsinki Commission, which are the important part of the Congress that follows and takes part to a great deal in the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly.

We are focused on a number of issues that I think are important. We discussed the importance of two things that I want to stress here. One is to engage with Central Asia. If we are 56 countries, two on this side of the Atlantic, the United States and Canada, 54 in the wider Europe, and the most remote are the five Central Asian countries that, of course, come out of the Soviet Union.

They have had no history of being independent before. They have a history, of course, of dictatorship as well in the former Soviet Union, and they are in a situation where they need the engagement and support from us in the OSCE. They are building their countries. They need sovereignty support helping to build national institutions, to build some sort of a national identity. And that is not that easy.

I want to underline that, because it takes time. You take the Czech Republic, that also is a new country in the sense that it didn't exist as a country 20 years ago but is situated in Europe with democratic neighbors and European culture. It's more difficult for them. It's more difficult for the Central Asians. I also emphasize that we from the Parliamentary Assembly engaged with them by having our annual assembly next year in Astana, which is the capital of Kazakhstan.

Also there is a contentious issue concerning the chairman for 2009, the country that will lead the foreign ministry, that will lead the organization. And I certainly favor that Kazakhstan should be able to become chairman 2009. I think that his part of engaging with Central Asia, with Kazakhstan itself, supporting and helping it build its independence. And also of course building its democracy. It's not a democracy, a perfect democracy today, no. But I think we have a responsibility to do that.

So that's certainly one of the points I made. The other is the importance of the parliamentary diplomacy, the parliamentary engagement. Because we -- in building the new democracies in central and eastern Europe, and I will say that it's Western Balkans, it's Black Sea area and Central Asia. That's a part of the European house, as Gorbachev would have said, it needs construction and needs rebuilding.

And a vital parliament is extremely important, because power must be controlled. That's the essence of democracy. Then to control power you need of course a vital parliament, a parliament that really has standing, that has the possibility to do that. And that's why I'm expressing -- and of course that's a popular idea in the Congress of course, that the parliamentary dimension is important.

I just want to focus on these two issues. Then of course we discussed a lot of other things that are in our organization. That we end by saying, though, that if you look at Europe now, I made a comparison with the United States saying that when the United States somewhere was it in the early 19th century went over the Mississippi that was like when the Berlin Wall fell, we moved to the East, on the other half of Europe so to say, including the Czech Republic.

And our Pacific Ocean, that's the Black Sea when we reached on the other side of the continent, fulfilling the task of building a Europe whole and free. We are not there yet. But this is the important thing that you will see is a very important part.

MR. HASTINGS: And in the Helsinki Commission today, the president also highlighted the need for U.S. parliamentarians to involve themselves in election observation and other activities. He has presented today in the Commission hearing as well as a follow-up, Hilda Solis, who he has just appointed as a special representative on the issue of immigration. And Hilda is from California. Senator Ben Cardin was with us for the hearing. The ranking member of the Helsinki Commission from New Jersey, Chris Smith, Robert Aderholt from Alabama and Mike McIntyre from North Carolina were with us, and G.K. Butterfield, who is also a Commissioner. So he brought out a large number of the commissioners today, and I was very pleased that that occurred.

Also traveling with the president is the Secretary General of the Parliamentary Assembly, Spencer Oliver, and others in the entourage. But with that, this is supposed to be a roundtable, so you all do what you do at a roundtable.

MR. LENNMARKER: You ask the questions. We try to answer.

MODERATOR: You've already introduced yourself, maybe to remind when you ask a question, who you are and where you're from.

QUESTION: My name is Daniel Anyz. I'm from the Czech Republic, U.S. correspondent with Czech daily paper. Have you discussed Turkey, the situation with Turkey in connection with the resolution which was passed in the Foreign Affairs Committee?

So have you spoken about this, whether -- what could be the impact of this resolution, and whether the House should go ahead or lay it aside? And then if I can for Congressman Hastings, what is the current situation?

MR. HASTINGS: I'll defer to the president, and then I'll answer.

MR. LENNMARKER: No, I have not as president of the Parliamentary Assembly dealt with that issue. Of course, I have an opinion more perhaps as the chairman of the Swedish Foreign Affairs Council.

I think, though, that that is the position of the Swedish Parliament as well that I think it's for the scientists to go back in history looking into the archives and to deal with these things, not for parliaments to make judgments on history, because this is very difficult for parliaments, first of all, because if you do it, you must have all the facts and details.

The other reason, of course, that should we in parliament go back in European history to make judgments of how we behaved back in history? I can tell you that most parliaments will deal a lot with that because in our history, including my own country, of course we have done things in the past that were not very pleasant, were not very democratic.

I will add that I think it's more important if we look at the Balkans, the Caucasus, which have been rather engaged -- particularly Nagorno-Karabakh -- by conflict, is to look to the future, learning to live together, not going back in history, trying to rectify that, but living together.

MR. HASTINGS: I echo the sentiments of President Lennmarker. And you ask about the state of play with reference to the resolution. When the resolution was offered, and at some point before this week's activity, there were 225 co-sponsors of the Armenian genocide resolution. Yesterday it appears that certainly as many as 25 of those co-sponsors withdrew their names as co-sponsors. That then allows that the speaker of the House, who by virtue of conscience and commitment, was unable to bring it to the floor for assured passage, which would require, of course, 218 votes.

Many of us, and I was among them, who once we realized that this matter came out of the Foreign Affairs Committee on the 27-21 vote that it did come out, we determined that because of the United States' relationship with Turkey, the critical nature of the fact that in Iraq our military would be placed in jeopardy, in large measure for several reasons. Among them, Turkey is a transit point for one-third of all of the energy supplies that reach the American troops in Iraq and in Afghanistan. And I say American troops. Those that are in the coalition, but specifically the American military. Seventy percent of the regular supplies go through Incirlik. I highlighted the fact the Bosporus is perhaps one of the least talked about most important commercial transit areas for a number of countries. I also highlighted the fact that Turkey, when we had the intervention in Iraq, lost billions of dollars in commerce with Iraq that they conducted previous to the intervention of our coalition in Iraq.

I also pointed out Turkey's significance for Middle East ability generally, dealing specifically with Iran, and countries that are secular, or a country, that is a Muslim country would have the ability to assist others in understanding.

So where we are now is Speaker Pelosi has the prerogative to put the matter on the floor. If she had put it on the floor of the House of Representatives yesterday, it would have been defeated. And it's my belief that if she puts it on the floor next week or any time before the end of this year, it will be defeated.

Yes, young lady? We didn't meet you.

QUESTION: Sorry. I came in late. My name is Joyce Karam, and I'm with Al Hayat Newspaper, an Arabic daily. And I come from Lebanon, and we have a lot of Armenians in Lebanon and Syria as well. All these people had to leave because of what happened during the Ottoman Empire. You were talking about this resolution and the strategic relationship with Turkey, but how do you -- how -- what's the best way in your opinion to ensure that justice would be brought to these people when Turkey itself is not reconciling with itself and did not come, you know, and admit that this thing even happened? So, they have their own story, obviously. So that's one question.

And the second question is, I mean, how much this issue, if it's still played around, and taking Turkey's denial in your position, how it's going to impact Turkey's ambitions to go into the -- to be part of the EU, a member of the EU?

MR. HASTINGS: I'll defer to the president on that but take the first part of your question. I think you heard the president if you came in at that time say that it's probably best left to the scientists, as he referred to it. I would refer you to the existing commission that is studying the transpiration of events.

Miss -- I met yesterday with two members of Parliament from Lebanon. They do not have the same views that you do. They were fully mindful of the ongoing circumstances, and I would ask you to speak with them and learn what some others may very well think.

Now I take this opportunity to talk to you in frank and realistic terms, so as how you can clearly understand. My mama used to have an expression that says I don't ring no backin' bells. And by that it meant the large bells that would ring in institutions. They have the front ones and the back ones. Well, the person in the back is pulling a different kind of chain.

I take no back seat to anybody in the United States House of Representatives on the subject of humanitarian issues. What happened from 1915 to 1922 in World War I in Armenia is of substantial importance. But if I could carry you to a period before that, and as an African American, let me make it very clear to you, and you heard what President Lennmarker said about other countries, including his own, that may have done things that they are not satisfied with.

This United States of America has never apologized for slavery. Never. This United States of America the president spoke about the Mississippi as being the Great Divide, and when we went across it. What he did not include is that from the East to the West, we had driven every Native American in this country completely across the country, encamped them, and they have never been apologized to.

Now I want Armenia to receive their satisfaction. But as a practical matter, it is not the right time for this country. And folks say, well, is there ever a right time? Well, there may have been at other times, and there may be in the future for the American parliament to make such a judgment. But this isn't the right time with the Iraq war ongoing like it is for us to aggravate tensions in that area. I believe very seriously that it is something best left, as the president said, to those who are historians and that they can reconcile.

And let me add one more thing. The president and I know Armenian parliamentarians and Turkish parliamentarians. And we have had this discussion with them. I've not talked with him about it. But I've had this discussion with them. I called yesterday to the ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in Vienna, from Armenia. I learned that he was in hospital and therefore I could not talk with him. In the time that I have served in the Parliamentary Assembly, I consider him in a casual way to be one of my best friends.

One of my very best friends is Dr. Yalcentis, who is Turkish. And I have sat with them on five different occasions discussing this matter in an intellectual way and a non-emotional way. And that's what is needed for there to be some understanding, not some parliament making a declaration.

Pardon me, Göran, for going on, but I wanted her to be clear about what was going on.

MR. LENNMARKER: Strong sentiments on that, which I think is right. I mean, if you look at the European continent, full of historic atrocities. However, we can't go back in our history. As I said, my own country, how we behaved in our neighborhood. You can make a research into that and find things that we should really be ashamed of. That goes for practically every country on the European continent.

We are saying -- not least in the Balkans, but there are those going back in history, so 1389 if I just take the Kosovo policy more or less paralyzing about the different parts of history during 600 years when your own country suffered, sometimes forgetting when your own country not did suffer but the other country did suffer. Selective history memories is very common in parts of Europe.

What we say is now do like in South Africa. Build the future.

MR. HASTINGS: Australia did the same thing with the aborigines.

MR. LENNMARKER: Build the future, knowing that we have things in the past, not in that sense forgetting it. Because that is not correct. You shouldn't forget Apartheid of course, what happened in South Africa. But you build the future by trying to get countries to come together, look to the future, not least the younger generation. And then of course researchers, you should open dark corners. There should be a critical historical debate dealing with the substance, certainly, as it should be in all countries.

But it is not for parliaments to vote on these matters. We don't vote about truth. I mean, we vote about actions and laws and all things, but the interpretation of what happened during 1915 to 17, which was a tragedy certainly. And most Armenians living outside of Armenia of course are part of that. That's part of the family history.

As you, I've spent some time in Armenia, not least in Nagorno-Karabakh, and you read a lot coming back, supporting the country from Diaspora. Their foreign minister, by the way, was born in Syria, Oskanian. Came then -- came to live in United States, and now is the foreign minister of Armenia. So of course he and his family are also part of all these events.

QUESTION: Well, how do you see this playing with the European Union?

MR. LENNMARKER: The European Union -- I'm one of those strongly advocating Turkish membership in the European Union. Two things. One is to fulfill the requirements of being a democracy with all their rules that we demand of each and every member. The same for Sweden as for Turkey. That, of course, is they wish to be that themselves. Which means that you must have the openness, the freedom of research, critical debate inside the country. It will have to be in universities, history institutions or whatever, to have this debate as it should be, a critical debate on what happened in your own country and how you behaved towards others. That is a civilized way to do it. But not for parliament to vote on history.

MR. HASTINGS: Right. And there have been time parameters set by the European Union and bars that Turkey is going to have to go over before their acceptance. The president didn't complete the second part was probably economic development, which is --

MR. LENNMARKER: Yes.

MR. HASTINGS: -- a requisite for them to move into the EU. Like President Lennmarker, I firmly favor Turkey's entry into the EU, and for that matter, at the appropriate time, other countries as well that I'm hopeful will be accepted by the European Union.

QUESTION: Just a question.

MR. HASTINGS: We're going to condemn the Roman Empire, too, I mean, you know what I'm saying?

(Laughter.)

QUESTION: My name is Luciano Clerico I'm with the Italian News Agency (ANSA). Don't you think that a possible way would be the way of the Dalai Lama in the Congress yesterday?

MR. LENNMARKER: I was not asked. I didn't -- what -- I was traveling yesterday.

QUESTION: But it was not a Congress vote, but it's a way to put clear a position. Yes, I would like to have your opinion about that.

MR. HASTINGS: Yeah. I think that that's a sound and sensible proposition. He was given a Congressional gold medal and recognized for his efforts in trying to make peace around the world. If you notice, there was no condemnation of China in any sense of the word.

So, yes, I like that approach. But I more specifically on the subject at hand like what President Lennmarker said referencing apartheid and what they did there was establish a truth and reconciliation commission. And I cited Australia. The one thing that I like about Australia's truth and reconciliation with its aboriginal people is the very first sentence of it says "We did the aborigines wrong, and we apologize." You understand what I'm saying?

Now I think Turkey needs to come to terms with itself in that regard, and the approaches that were utilized yesterday. I was not at the ceremony personally. I had other business. But I've met the Dalai Lama in the United States Congress, and as he and other spiritual leaders, I'm hopeful that they will do more in the world to try to reconcile these kinds of differences.

But when I met him, I was very tempted and did ask him in a small setting, I said, I know you get the question all the time, but do people say to you, "Hello, Dalai?" And the biggest smile just came across his face. He is just such a warm human being.

QUESTION: Well, just -- I'm Karen Henricksson and I'm with the Swedish Daily Svenska Dagbladet. I was just wondering about your speech. You said this morning about the election to the Duma that you haven't been invited but expect to. Is this unusual, or?

MR. LENNMARKER: We hope to get the invitation soon, because the Duma election is the second of December. So it is high time to get the invitation. There is a commitment for members in the OSCE to be invited as election observers. I criticized earlier on the Polish -- Poland, the Polish government and perhaps their parliament, for not inviting. But they corrected that and they invited election observers.

I guess that -- not guess -- I think that we'll get an invitation. But since we have not received it yet, of course I cannot say that we have been invited.

MR. HASTINGS: Right. Russia is in transition in a lot of ways, and their reevaluation of their positions on things such as election observation, the president and I have had an extraordinary experience in that regard. I believe he and I together were election observers in Russia, he perhaps more than I. But I was on two different occasions. And he and I combined, just the two of us, you're looking at people that probably have done -- and he more than me -- probably as many as 25 or more election observations in Europe.

Now guess what? Until -- what year was it, 2004? Until 2004, the United States had never permitted the Parliamentary Assembly of OSCE to observe it's elections. Through my efforts -- I normally don't try to take credit for things. I'm going to take credit for this one. Through my efforts, over the objection of an extraordinary number of people in the State Department and the Administration, we were able to convince Secretary Powell to invite the Parliamentary Assembly for the very first time.

You know why I felt that way? If I could go to Russia, and I did, and observe their elections, if I could go to Ukraine or Armenia, ma'am, or Azerbaijan and observe their elections, then I deemed it nothing more than appropriate that Russia and Russians should be able to come here and observe mine, especially in light of the fact that I'm from Florida. I wanted to make absolutely certain that we were open.

So some ultimate benefits do come out of this. I share with you, and I've done it in public before, and I believe Secretary Powell would attest to this, the Tuesday before he made the decision on Thursday, there was an extraordinarily nasty editorial taking me and my persona and my character to task in the Washington Times, if you wish to go to their archives and look it up.

And then there were certain other individuals -- names will not be mentioned -- in the Administration that castigated me and him. And what he said to me was in order to accomplish having the American government invite the Parliamentary Assembly, that he got the crap kicked out of him. That's the way he put it. And I would have said it another way. I use invective sometimes for humor and other purposes. But that's exactly what he said, and he did. But we did it.

And I still, and I believe the president will attest to this, I still am upset with our great Western, most observers around the world, the United Kingdom, go everywhere all of the world, election observing. You or anybody else try to go into a precinct in the United Kingdom during an election. I'm here to tell you, it can't happen. And they need to break that up. They need to break it up.

So, Russia will eventually invite us, and I will insist that the Parliamentary Assembly be invited again to the United States. The parliamentary dimension of election observation has absolutely no peers. When Göran Lennmarker and I walk into an election room, and he and I have done so together in the same cities, and when we are with 60 or 110 or 40 politicians and we're in the Ukraine, or I led the observation in Belarus, when we walk into one of those places, we're parliamentarians. We're not bureaucrats. We're not somebody sitting off in some little office in Warsaw. We can go in and smell and feel what's happening in an election, and that's why I'm insistent that the parliamentary dimension be observed.

Again, I feel very strongly about this.

(Laughter.)

MR. HASTINGS: And if you wake up at four o'clock in the morning, I'll tell you how I really feel.

(Laughter.)

MODERATOR: Maybe one more question.

MR. HASTINGS: Yes. Thanks, Pete. And thank you all, the foreign press.

QUESTION: Just an Italian question. I'll do it in English. What do you think about the new born Partito Democratico in Italy? There is something that is changing in your opinion or not?

MR. LENNMARKER: That is hard for me to answer because I'm not that familiar. I know there are two parties, if I remember the Margherita and the others are coming together.

QUESTION: Together, yeah.

MR. LENNMARKER: A general comment of course is that in the Italian political spectrum I guess that if you reduce the number of parties I think is good.

QUESTION: Okay.

MR. LENNMARKER: Because there are very many parties. Could I add, though, since it's right for Italian press that I appointed Senator Vicini from Palermo as my special representative on organized crime.

He comes, as you know, from Sicily, from Palermo, which of course gives a certain ring when you speak about fighting organized crime. He brought up the idea that the OSCE should focus on that, that it's an important thing to do.

Organized crime is a big threat not only to Europe but perhaps to the wider world. We see that in a lot of the transition countries to the east, that strong, very strong economic interests and some not economic interests are really a threat to political and democratic life. I think it's proper for the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly to focus on that, because that is a problem that we have.

And I'm very glad, I must say, that Senator Vicini with his background -- he is one of those who need police protection when he walks around in the city. So he pays a personal price for his commitment, that he will take that. I'm very glad that he will take that responsibility.

MR. HASTINGS: To show you again, though, a dimension that isn't brought out very much about us, when our assembly met in Italy in Rome, President Lennmarker and myself, the Secretary General, had an opportunity to have an audience with the Pope. And I'm an advocate of -- you mentioned the Dalai Lama -- coming from the halcyon days of segregation in this country, as an advocate in civil rights and civil liberty, I never would have been able to survive but for the interdenominational ecumenical approach that the existing rabbis and ministers in my community undertook.

And I continue along those lines in trying to establish that with our new friends that are establishing their mosques, and I think it very important that we have interracial, inter-cultural, inter-religious ongoing dialogue.